center few people are totally neutral going in and it's not entertaining, it's educational. bill: that contradicts the point about saying maybe in the case of governor romney. there is a sliver of people saying i don't know enough about this guy. if he convinces me, he might get my vote. >> i think that's important. if the election were held by the polls he's a few points behind. he needs the debates to change the dynamics where people say this is a down to the wire race. he's a goodall tern tough. let's look at the details of his plan and programs. bill: do you find incumbents are out of shape when it come to debating ability? >> they are because no one is on the stage with them as an equal. all of a sudden you look across the stage and there is a guy being treated as your equal trying to get your job. they are not in the same kind of form. reagan didn't do well in his first debate. gerald ford didn't do well in this first debate. even clinton wasn't as good as he was in other forums. the president who is a good debater but not a great debater, it's a lot of pressure on him